AI-Driven Growth Versus Deficits: Dual Forces Shaping Economic Outcomes
TL;DR
- The dual forces of AI-driven growth and demographic-driven deficits create a tug-of-war, making a "status quo" economic forecast of 2% growth and 2% inflation less than a 20% probability over the next 3-7 years.
- In an AI-driven growth scenario, the most effective investment strategy involves underweighting technology stocks after the initial boom, as non-tech companies will benefit from AI's broad economic transformation.
- Conversely, if AI fails to deliver significant growth and deficits dominate, equities may offer bond-like returns, making fixed income, particularly higher-duration bonds, a more attractive asset class for diversification.
- The simultaneous rise of gold and the S&P 500 signals market anticipation of non-consensus outcomes, reflecting both optimistic AI potential and pessimistic deficit concerns, a dynamic explained by this dual-force framework.
- Over 5,000 AI companies have been funded in the US recently, suggesting that even with bullish AI sentiment, a shift towards non-tech sectors and international diversification may be prudent for long-term investors.
- Embracing AI tools proactively in one's profession is crucial for adaptation, as it enhances productivity, offers a competitive edge, and provides early insight into potential job disruption across various sectors.
Deep Dive
The discussion begins by revisiting Joe Davis's prior research from five years ago, which stemmed from a discrepancy between the accelerating pace of scientific discovery, particularly in artificial intelligence, and the stagnant economic growth observed in the U.S. and other developed markets. This led to the development of the "idea multiplier" framework, which analyzes data points such as patents and scholarly articles to identify accelerating scientific and technological advancements. The framework indicated a potential acceleration in technology's impact five to seven years out, even before these ideas fully entered the mainstream economy.
The conversation then moves to Joe Davis's book, "Coming Into View: How AI and Other Megatrends Will Shape Your Investments." The inspiration for the book arose from the profound implications of the research for financial markets and the economy, aiming to present complex topics like AI, aging demographics, and debt levels in an accessible manner. The book draws on over two years of data collection across various dimensions and utilizes a data-driven framework to discuss probabilities and magnitudes of future outcomes for interest rates, inflation, growth, and the stock market.
A central theme of the discussion is the economic prognosis for the next several years, which deviates significantly from the consensus view of stable 2% growth and 2% inflation. Davis argues that the probability of this "status quo" scenario is less than 20%. Instead, his framework suggests a "tug-of-war" between the positive effects of AI, which could significantly lift growth and innovation, and the negative pressures of rising debt levels and weakening demographics, which could push interest rates up and growth down. This leads to two primary non-consensus outcomes: an "AI wins" scenario with accelerated growth, or a "deficits dominate" scenario with slower growth and increased pressure on government balance sheets.
The discussion elaborates on several key megatrends that influence this economic outlook. These include technology, encompassing its ability to automate, complement human work, and serve as a general-purpose technology unleashing new industries; debt and deficits, which impact bond markets and can create inflation pressures; globalization, considering the pace of international trade and current tariff levels; demographics, including population growth rates, immigration, and the aging of society, which affects labor force participation and government spending programs like Social Security and Medicare; geopolitical tensions; and climate change. Davis emphasizes that these forces, often overlooked in short-term economic commentary, significantly impact the economy and stock market today.
The framework for handicapping these outcomes involves updating data in real time and comparing it to market expectations. While AI continues to accelerate, influencing the odds of the "AI wins" scenario, worsening deficit projections have also slightly increased the probability of the more negative scenario. This dynamic is seen as explaining the concurrent rise in the price of gold and the S&P 500, as both are consistent with emerging non-consensus outcomes: gold with a pessimistic thesis and the stock market with an optimistic view on AI.
Reactions to Davis's thesis vary. In Silicon Valley, there is strong conviction that AI will be transformational, with some believing Davis's projections underestimate its impact. Conversely, some academic institutions, particularly on the East Coast, express skepticism about AI's potential lift and lean towards the "deficits dominate" scenario, questioning how the projected 2% growth scenario can be accurate. Despite this pushback at the extremes, Davis notes that nearly all economists adhere to the consensus 2% growth forecast, a view not reflected in his framework.
The prescription for investors, particularly in the context of the "AI wins" scenario, suggests an underweighting of technology stocks in equity portfolios, despite the potential for a tech boom. This contrarian view is based on historical technology cycles where, after an initial phase of outperformance by tech incumbents, non-tech companies eventually outperform. This occurs because transformative technologies improve efficiency and productivity across the broader economy, and the massive influx of new entrants into the tech sector can reduce returns for existing players. Davis points to the over 5,000 AI companies funded in the U.S. in the past four years as a rationale for expecting this dynamic to play out in AI as well.
In the "deficits dominate" scenario, the recommendation is to underweight technology and overweight fixed income. This is because, in this pessimistic outlook, stocks may deliver bond-like returns, and while interest rates face upward pressure due to fiscal demands, the Federal Reserve is expected to manage inflation, leading to attractive yields in short and intermediate-duration fixed income. The discussion also touches on gold as a potential hedge in this scenario, but notes that the "gold camp" often overlooks the Federal Reserve's role in managing inflation.
The conversation shifts to the role of diversification, specifically regarding international bonds. While standard diversification aims to reduce month-to-month volatility, Davis distinguishes this from mitigating "state of the world" risk, where avoiding severe negative outcomes is paramount. He notes that while international bonds, on a hedged basis, can offer marginal diversification benefits by lowering volatility, unhedged international exposure, particularly in equities and potentially fixed income, can serve as "tail insurance" against currency crises. However, unhedged fixed income introduces stock-like volatility, which is why it is not broadly recommended, though some international unhedged equity exposure is common.
Regarding the impact of AI on the financial advisory profession, Davis advises individuals to embrace and utilize AI tools as much as possible in their current roles. He likens this to the adoption of personal computers and Excel, emphasizing a learning process that increases productivity and efficiency. For professions facing significant automation potential, such as computer programming, some financial services roles, and economics, this early adoption provides time for job transitions. Davis uses the analogy of electricity's adoption, suggesting that as AI becomes more transformational, specialized degrees will not be necessary to use it effectively.
Looking ahead, Davis mentions that his team at Vanguard is continuing to research areas such as portfolio construction, low-cost investing, active strategies, retirement income, and further applications of AI in predicting future trends. He expresses pride in identifying the current "tug-of-war" narrative between AI and deficits as a dominant theme for the year and commits to continuing to disclose evolving probability assessments.
Finally, listeners are directed to "Better Vantage by Vanguard," a new podcast featuring thought leaders, and encouraged to find Joe Davis's book, "Coming Into View," on Amazon or local bookstores.
Action Items
- Audit AI adoption: Assess current AI tool usage across 3-5 teams to identify productivity gains and skill gaps.
- Design risk mitigation framework: Develop a system for evaluating non-consensus economic scenarios (e.g., AI failure, deficit dominance) with defined probability thresholds.
- Implement diversification strategy: Rebalance equity portfolio to underweight technology sector by 5-10% and increase exposure to non-US or value-oriented assets.
- Track technology cycle impact: Monitor 5-10 key non-tech industries for AI-driven efficiency gains and new profit opportunities over the next 2-3 years.
Key Quotes
"The core of our research was trying to develop data be data driven right not opinion and then look at where scientific discovery could lead to to technological change which ultimately drives markets earnings and growth and um and that led us down what we call the idea multiplier effectively it is looking at all the ideas that are being generated that can be written down patents new medicines articles by scholars and we were looking at is that accelerating and good ideas within those works."
Joe Davis explains that their research methodology shifted from relying on opinions to a data-driven approach. This involved analyzing scientific discoveries and technological changes by examining patents, medicines, and scholarly articles to gauge the acceleration of good ideas. This "idea multiplier" concept is central to their framework for understanding economic drivers.
"The most likely outcome is that what is a scenario that i call ai wins which means over the next five years we will have economic growth accelerate despite the aging of society and poor demographic profile in the united states so much so that growth could be above 3 closer to the level we had in the late 90s and i'm not just saying that because i'm optimistic on ai it's based upon what it will do to the workforce and it'll be disruptive it'll probably be the biggest change in around 600 out of the 800 occupations we've looked at it'll be the greatest change in how we spend our time in at least 40 years it's going to be a big change and it'll be disruptive and there will be some job loss."
Davis outlines the "AI wins" scenario, which he considers the most likely outcome. He projects that AI will drive economic growth above 3% over the next five years, even with demographic headwinds. Davis emphasizes that this growth will stem from AI's disruptive impact on the workforce, affecting a significant portion of occupations and fundamentally changing how people spend their time.
"The most compelling investment strategy in the investment cycle in that world now you have to give it five or seven years is actually the more bullish you are on ai the more you underweight technology in your equity portfolio oh that's a spicy take let's hear it and the reason i don't see this coming necessarily because it sounds like hey we're going to have a tech boom invest in the tech companies but i actually the more we did digging and we looked at like 150 years different technologies emerged electricity the automobile transistor computer internet but you know you know a thousand of these examples but you've got enough what becomes readily apparent although the timing always varies a little bit is that there's two phases to this technological transformation assuming we you know ai is the next general purpose technology which again i'm saying there's a 60 odds that's going to happen from what we know today the first phase is almost without exception is the production of that technology people are buying it businesses are unleashing it if it's the personal computer and the internet it's the late 90s it's you can think of the internet's companies it's the personal software and computers i talk about this all in the book and of course those stocks the tech i'll call it the tech sector but electricity utility companies were the tech sector in the 1910s yeah automobile manufacturers were the tech companies in some of the 20s and 30s but let's call it the tech sector they they drastically outperform in the first half and and there's no surprise perhaps that some technology stocks are outperforming today what i was surprised to find is that in the second half of the cycle the non tech companies outperform."
Davis presents a counterintuitive investment strategy: the more bullish one is on AI, the more they should underweight technology stocks in their equity portfolio. He bases this on historical analysis of technological transformations, noting that while tech stocks lead in the initial phase, non-tech companies tend to outperform in the second half of the cycle as the technology becomes more widespread and benefits other sectors.
"The fact that they're both going up is actually consistent at least with our projections that you have non consensus outcomes emerging both a pessimistic one which is a little bit closer to what the those that are buying gold it would be consistent with their thesis as well as the more optimistic one in terms of ai being potentially transformative right and the stock market is very excited about that so the prices today i i i'm asked a lot like how do you square that circle it's and and it's actually to the best of my knowledge our framework is the only framework that actually explains the rise of both because we are saying there is high ai though we are not getting consensus outcomes and it's going to push one way or the other and i wish i could just tell this audience it is only skewed one way or the other because it's a very easy narrative but it is it's too early in both ai's pace and the deficits would have to materially worsen and ai has to get materially better so everyone who's using chat gpt it better get way better than it is right now to get the lift we need to overcome some of the headwinds the world faces and our model and our projections are are simulating what those futures could be and that's where those probabilities are coming from."
Davis explains how the simultaneous rise of gold and the S&P 500, particularly tech stocks, aligns with his framework's prediction of non-consensus outcomes. He argues that this phenomenon is explained by his model, which accounts for both a pessimistic scenario (benefiting gold) and an optimistic AI-driven scenario (benefiting stocks), suggesting that markets are beginning to price in these divergent possibilities.
"The greatest diversification is actually in the fixed income side even though you do get more volatility in bonds and that's because of the downward draft in equities but you have the federal reserve that's that's keeping rates well above the rate of inflation in part they have to because deficits continue to rise and are showing some inflation there and that's what the gold camp misses the gold camp assumes that the federal reserve does nothing they receive from the battlefield we have high deficits keep going up we get a currency debasement and we get this inflation like the 70s that's possible we show about a 5 probability of that happening it has happened in the past in some countries my my point being is gold that's the achilles heel of the gold trade even if you're pessimistic on ai you're giving no role for the fed if you and most likely than not the fed is holding the line on some of this and you get that high income income carry of short and intermediate duration fixed income there's more volatility but the greatest volatility is in the equity market so that's the that's actually the strategy is your market if you have a world where fiscal pressures have manifested and we haven't had the ai boom you actually want to overweight fixed income."
Davis argues that in a scenario where fiscal pressures are high and AI has not delivered a boom, fixed income offers the greatest diversification, despite potential volatility. He criticizes the "gold camp" for assuming the Federal Reserve will be inactive, stating that the Fed will likely maintain
Resources
External Resources
Books
- "Coming Into View: How AI and Other Megatrends Will Shape Your Investments" by Joe Davis - Mentioned as the source of his latest research on megatrends and their impact on investments.
People
- Joe Davis - Vanguard's Global Chief Economist and Global Head of Vanguard’s Investment Strategy Group, guest on the podcast.
- Meb Faber - Host of The Meb Faber Show.
- Jack Bogle - Referenced for his approach to investing.
- Thomas Edison - Mentioned in an analogy about the adoption of electricity.
Organizations & Institutions
- Vanguard - Employer of Joe Davis and provider of investment services.
- Cambria Investment Management - Meb Faber's firm.
- The Podcast Consultant - Provided editing and post-production work for the episode.
- AcreTrader - Sponsor of the podcast, an investment platform for farmland.
- Stanford University - Mentioned for its AI lab and data on AI companies.
- The Wall Street Journal - Partnered with Vanguard on a new podcast.
- QQR - Mentioned as a source of research for The Idea Farm newsletter.
- GMO - Mentioned as a source of research for The Idea Farm newsletter.
Websites & Online Resources
- The Idea Farm (theideafarm.com) - A newsletter that distills investing insights.
- cambriafunds.com/351 - Website for information on 351 ETF exchanges.
- cambriainvestments.com - Website for Cambria Investment Management.
- megaphone.fm/adchoices - Link for ad choices.
- thepodcastconsultant.com - Website for The Podcast Consultant.
- mebfaber.com/podcast - Website for show notes of The Meb Faber Show.
- uniswap.org - Website for the Uniswap wallet and trading protocol.
- meyer.com - Website for Meyer stores.
Podcasts & Audio
- The Meb Faber Show - Better Investing - The podcast where this episode was featured.
- Better Vantage by Vanguard - A new podcast by Vanguard featuring thought leaders.
Other Resources
- AI (Artificial Intelligence) - Discussed as a megatrend shaping investments and the economy.
- National Debt - Discussed as a factor influencing the U.S. economy alongside AI.
- Megatrends - A concept discussed by Joe Davis regarding their impact on investments.
- Idea Multiplier - A framework developed by Joe Davis to track idea generation and technological change.
- 351 ETF Exchange - A method for transitioning legacy investment positions into an ETF without immediate tax bills.
- Globalization - Discussed as a megatrend affecting trading across borders.
- Demographics - Discussed as a factor influencing economic growth and government spending.
- Geopolitical Tensions - Mentioned as a factor influencing the economy and financial markets.
- Climate Change - Mentioned as a factor being incorporated into economic analysis.
- Capital Markets Model - A model used by Vanguard to project market returns.