Adapting Journalism to Evolving Audiences and Creator Models - Episode Hero Image

Adapting Journalism to Evolving Audiences and Creator Models

The Kicker · · Listen to Original Episode →
Original Title:

TL;DR

  • Creator journalism, while unhinged and lacking traditional ethics, offers a vital pathway to engage "news avoiders" by meeting them on platforms like TikTok, fostering interest where traditional outlets fail.
  • Subscription-based journalism creates problematic incentives, potentially compromising editorial independence by making creators beholden to paying audiences rather than journalistic principles.
  • Traditional institutions struggle to replicate the authenticity and rawness of emerging creator journalism, suggesting that direct replication is less effective than understanding the underlying audience draw.
  • Local TV news, often overlooked, provides a rich source of community-steeped reporting and direct confrontation, demonstrating a valuable model of journalistic engagement and accountability.
  • The media industry's shift necessitates a focus on how audiences consume news, rather than solely lamenting lost models, to identify and nurture new forms of journalism.
  • Journalists often engage in repetitive conversations, suggesting that external perspectives, particularly from non-journalists, are crucial for fresh insights and avoiding insular industry discourse.

Deep Dive

The podcast "The Kicker" transitions hosts from Josh Hersh to Megan Greenwell, highlighting the journalism industry's ongoing financial instability and the emergence of new content creation models. The conversation underscores that despite industry challenges, audience engagement with news remains high, albeit through evolving platforms and methods, suggesting a need for established institutions to adapt rather than lament past structures.

Josh Hersh's tenure as host coincided with a period of significant industry contraction, marked by the bankruptcy of Vice and widespread layoffs, yet he intentionally steered the podcast away from a purely academic analysis of trends. Instead, he focused on journalism itself as the subject, exploring how news events are covered and consumed, aiming to make the content engaging for both himself and the audience. This approach allowed him to observe nascent signs of renewal, such as new publications and significant investments in newsrooms like MS Now. The rise of "creator journalism" and the phenomenon of "news avoidance" are presented as critical developments. Hersh argues that many who identify as news avoiders still consume significant amounts of news, often through non-traditional channels like TikTok creators. This shift indicates that while established journalistic standards and ethics are crucial, understanding where and how audiences, particularly younger demographics, are accessing information is paramount for the industry's future relevance.

The core implication is that journalism's survival and impact hinge on its ability to adapt to new formats and audience behaviors. The conversation emphasizes that traditional institutions must engage with, rather than dismiss, the innovations seen in creator journalism, recognizing that these new models, while sometimes lacking formal training or established ethical frameworks, are effectively reaching audiences. Hersh draws a parallel to his own experience at Vice, noting that attempts to replicate raw, organic content with more structured, institutional approaches can alienate the original audience. Instead of direct replication, the focus should be on understanding the underlying appeal of these new methods to foster genuine interest in news and information. The conversation concludes by highlighting the inherent tension between audience-driven content models and traditional journalistic independence, suggesting that as creators grow, they will likely find value in adopting core journalistic principles like transparency and ethical sourcing, which ultimately serve to build audience trust and credibility.

Action Items

  • Audit creator journalism: Analyze 3-5 platforms for ethical standards and audience engagement tactics (ref: news avoider insights).
  • Measure audience news consumption: Track 5-10 non-traditional news sources for engagement patterns among younger demographics.
  • Develop local journalism spotlight: Feature 2-3 community-based news outlets and their reporting methods quarterly.
  • Evaluate TV news value: Assess 3-5 local TV news programs for their community impact and storytelling techniques.
  • Track creator-journalism evolution: Monitor 5-10 emerging creators for adherence to journalistic principles over a 6-month period.

Related Episodes

Key Quotes

"I remember it with like a degree of shame because I was like, I don't want to go to The Spectator every day and be there until four in the morning. I'm just going to write when I feel like it, which is such an obnoxious thing to do."

Josh Hersh reflects on his early approach to writing for a college newspaper, admitting a past tendency to only contribute when inspiration struck rather than adhering to a consistent daily schedule. Hersh acknowledges this behavior as "obnoxious," indicating a self-awareness about his past work habits.

"One Sunday in 1950, Phillips attended church as he had been routinely doing for the past 10 weeks. The minister spoke of the forgiveness available to all through Christ and asked if anyone would be willing to acknowledge his sin by raising a hand. Without thinking, Phillips raised his. Something occurred within me instantly, he recalled. I was transformed in that moment, and it has lasted to this very hour."

Megan Greenwell highlights a passage from a profile written by Josh Hersh, illustrating a narrative style that captured her attention as a freshman editor. Greenwell explains that this descriptive and personal account of a minister's transformation demonstrated to her the potential for journalism to convey profound human experiences beyond simple reporting.

"I made the decision to not make the podcast feel to me like an academic podcast about the industry. I wanted every episode to be a journalist was the subject, and I wanted us to talk about some aspect of journalism. I felt like that was important."

Josh Hersh explains his intentional approach to hosting "The Kicker" podcast, emphasizing his desire to focus on individual journalists and their work rather than abstract industry trends. Hersh believed this focus on the human element of journalism would make the podcast more engaging and relevant.

"The thing that happened, and I'm trying to figure out if there was like an extent to which there was like I was tracking it on the podcast so much, but the big change that happened over the time, the big, the big era we entered into is like when I arrived here at Columbia, it was on the back of Vice going bankrupt and what felt like the beginning or the middle of the end of the end, this like period that had been going on for a while of just like money disappearing from this industry and there not being the resources and there wasn't anything being created."

Josh Hersh describes the challenging economic climate of the journalism industry during his tenure as podcast host, noting the widespread disappearance of financial resources. Hersh links this period to the bankruptcy of Vice and a general decline in industry funding, suggesting a significant shift away from established media models.

"But at the same time, like we can't say that people don't care about the news because they actually care a lot. Those are very popular things, and young people are getting news from these people. To me, that's a great thing. I want to foster that."

Megan Greenwell discusses the consumption of news by younger audiences, arguing that despite a perceived lack of traditional engagement, they are actively consuming information through various platforms. Greenwell sees potential in these new avenues, expressing a desire to encourage and support how young people are accessing and interacting with news.

"I worry about subscription-based journalism. I do worry about it because I think it creates incentives that are not always good for journalism. There was a creator who I can't remember now who has done really good journalism, but didn't interview and then put out the, I think it was a Pete Buttigieg interview, and then they put out like a trailer for it, and their Patreon subscribers were really mad that he didn't ask a specific question."

Josh Hersh expresses concern regarding subscription-based journalism models, specifically highlighting how audience demands can influence editorial decisions. Hersh uses the example of a creator facing backlash from Patreon subscribers over interview questions, illustrating a potential conflict between journalistic integrity and financial dependence on an audience.

Resources

External Resources

Books

  • "The New Yorker" by John McPhee - Mentioned as an example of beautiful non-fiction prose and a publication where the author fact-checked.

Articles & Papers

  • "The Kicker" (CJR) - Mentioned as the podcast the previous host, Josh Hersh, produced.
  • "Project 2020-2050" (CJR) - Mentioned as a project that produced a piece about news avoiders.
  • "News Avoiders" (CJR) - Mentioned as a topic covered in a piece from the Journalism 2050 project.
  • "Alex Jones piece" (Vice) - Mentioned as an example of impactful journalism that broke traditional network rules.

People

  • Megan Greenwell - Current host of CJR's The Kicker podcast, writer, and editor.
  • Josh Hersh - Previous host of CJR's The Kicker podcast, worked at Columbia Daily Spectator, Ms. Now, and C.J.R.
  • John McCandlish Phillips - Local minister and former New York Times reporter profiled in a college newspaper article.
  • Molly White - Figure in the digital space, independent journalist covering crypto, whose work has been drawn on by The New York Times.
  • Ben Tuff - Academic expert on news avoidance.
  • Betsy - Mentioned for her work in helping CJR open up to new topics and her interest in a piece about news avoiders.
  • Colin - Mentioned as a creator who had an issue with a Pete Buttigieg interview due to audience feedback.
  • Andrew Callahan - Interviewer mentioned for his engaging style and probing questions.
  • Michael Moynihan - Vice journalist who conducted an interview with Alex Jones.
  • Megan Kelly - Former NBC host who interviewed Alex Jones.
  • Kyle Clark - Denver reporter admired for being steeped in his community and calling out bullshit.
  • Phil Williams - Nashville reporter admired for being steeped in his community and confronting subjects directly.
  • Jack Herrera - Mentioned for profiling a Spanish-speaking newspaper in Iowa.
  • Amanda Dera - Producer of The Kicker podcast.

Organizations & Institutions

  • CJR (Columbia Journalism Review) - Publisher of The Kicker podcast, involved in journalism research and projects.
  • Columbia Daily Spectator - Undergraduate newspaper at Columbia where the hosts first met.
  • Wired Magazine - Publication where Megan Greenwell has worked.
  • Deadspin - Publication where Megan Greenwell has worked.
  • The Washington Post - Publication where Megan Greenwell has worked.
  • Ms. Now - News organization where Josh Hersh works on the standards team, investing in a new newsroom.
  • The New York Times - Major news institution whose work has been drawn on by other journalists and which invests in new formats.
  • Equator - An interesting publication starting out of London.
  • NBC News - News organization with which Ms. Now's new newsroom is separate.
  • Patreon - Platform where creators can receive subscriptions from their audience.
  • The New Yorker - Publication where the author worked as a fact-checker and encountered John McPhee's work.
  • Vice - Media company mentioned for its bankruptcy, its past as a raw organic entity, and its nightly news show.
  • Nbc - Television network mentioned in comparison to Vice's interview style.
  • 60 Minutes - CBS newsmagazine program.
  • Fox - Television network where Megan Kelly previously worked.
  • Denver - Location of reporter Kyle Clark.
  • Nashville - Location of reporter Phil Williams.
  • Columbia - University where CJR is located and where the podcast is produced.

Websites & Online Resources

  • PFF (Pro Football Focus) - Mentioned as a data source for player grading in a bad example.
  • Patreon - Mentioned in relation to creators and audience demands.
  • YouTube - Platform where creators like Andrew Callahan have channels.
  • TikTok - Platform where young people get news and where creators are active.

Other Resources

  • Creator Journalism - Concept that exploded during the host's tenure, referring to independent journalists with their own internet presence.
  • News Avoiders - Individuals who do not consume traditional news sources but may consume news in other ways.
  • Subscription-based journalism - Model of journalism that can create complex incentives for creators.
  • Vertical Video - Video format that The New York Times has invested in.
  • TV News - Form of journalism that the previous host believes is undervalued and technically complex.
  • Local Television News - Type of journalism that is often overlooked but can be rich and community-focused.
  • Local Outlets - Mentioned as sources of valuable reporting for the world and journalism.
  • Student Journalism - Type of journalism that is valuable and celebrated.

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