Python Ecosystem Grapples With Deprecation Ineffectiveness - Episode Hero Image

Python Ecosystem Grapples With Deprecation Ineffectiveness

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Original Title: #462 LinkedIn Cringe

TL;DR

  • Deprecation warnings in Python libraries are often ineffective because they are ignored by default, leading to unexpected breaking changes when deprecated features are removed, suggesting a need for more visible or escalating warning mechanisms.
  • The "docs" project, a self-hostable collaborative note-taking and wiki platform, represents a significant open-source initiative by the French and German governments to provide alternatives to proprietary SaaS solutions.
  • PyAtlas offers an interactive visualization of the Python package ecosystem, revealing relationships between top packages and highlighting useful tools like pytest-deepassert for enhanced assertion diffs and pytest-plus for extended test functionality.
  • Buckaroo provides a unified, interactive data table UI for notebooks and other environments, enabling consistent data exploration with features like sorting, filtering, and summary statistics across Pandas and Polars dataframes.
  • PromptVer, a humorous versioning scheme for LLMs, highlights the growing need for managing AI model evolution and the potential for prompt injection vulnerabilities, even if presented as a joke.
  • The integration of uv as the default dependency manager in PyCharm for new projects simplifies Python development, particularly for beginners, by streamlining environment setup and package installation.
  • Recent fixes in Python build standalone address a performance regression where xz compression was three times slower due to being built in debug mode instead of release mode, impacting users of tools that rely on these builds.

Deep Dive

The Python Bytes podcast episode #462, "LinkedIn Cringe," highlights critical shifts in software development practices and tooling, particularly concerning deprecation strategies and the evolution of development environments. The discussion underscores the growing complexity of managing dependencies and codebases, suggesting a need for more robust and user-aware approaches to software maintenance and a move towards integrated, streamlined development workflows.

A significant portion of the episode addresses the ineffectiveness of standard deprecation warnings in Python libraries, as detailed in articles by Seth Larson and Ines Panker. The core issue is that by default, deprecation warnings are often ignored or not displayed, leading to unexpected breakage when deprecated features are eventually removed. This points to a systemic problem where library maintainers struggle to signal necessary changes to users who may not actively monitor warnings. The second-order implication is that this can lead to production incidents and significant rework for downstream users, creating a hidden cost of software maintenance. Brian suggests that warnings should be more prominent, potentially escalating in annoyance over time, while Michael advocates for a cleaner runtime by default but acknowledges the need for visibility. The discussion implies that current deprecation mechanisms are insufficient for the dynamic nature of Python development, potentially leading to technical debt and fragile applications.

The episode also showcases evolving tools that aim to simplify and enhance the developer experience. PyAtlas offers an interactive map of Python packages, aiding discovery and understanding of the ecosystem's structure, while Buckaroo provides a unified, interactive data table UI for notebooks, improving data exploration across different environments like Jupyter and VS Code. These tools reflect a broader trend towards improving developer productivity and reducing friction in complex workflows. Furthermore, the increasing adoption of tools like uv for managing Python installations and dependencies, as highlighted by Michael's updated installation guide and PyCharm's improved support, signifies a move towards more integrated and efficient development setups. The implication here is that developers are increasingly relying on these streamlined workflows to manage the complexity of modern software projects, suggesting that tools that abstract away installation and dependency management will become increasingly vital.

Finally, the episode touches on the lighter, yet revealing, side of the tech world with "Extras" and a "Joke" segment. Brian's mention of Thanos, a tool that randomly deletes files, and PromptVer, a humorous take on versioning for LLMs, highlight the experimental and sometimes absurd edges of software development. Michael's personal experiences with computer glasses for a new monitor and PyCharm's deeper uv integration, alongside PyCon US 2026 registration and updates on Python build tooling, paint a picture of continuous evolution and adaptation in the Python ecosystem. The "LinkedIn Cringe" segment, featuring an example of generic, potentially AI-generated corporate jargon, serves as a commentary on the performative aspects of professional online presence, contrasting with the practical tool and development discussions.

In essence, the episode reveals a Python ecosystem grappling with the practical challenges of code maintenance and dependency management, while simultaneously embracing new tools and methodologies to streamline development and foster innovation. The key takeaway is that effective deprecation strategies and integrated development environments are becoming paramount for maintaining software health and developer productivity in an increasingly complex landscape.

Action Items

  • Audit deprecation warnings: Implement a system to track and report on ignored deprecation warnings across 5 core libraries to proactively address potential breaking changes.
  • Create runbook template: Define 5 required sections (setup, common failures, rollback, monitoring) for self-hosted documentation platforms to prevent knowledge silos.
  • Evaluate PyAtlas data: Analyze the top 10,000 Python packages on PyPI to identify 3-5 underutilized but potentially valuable libraries for team adoption.
  • Implement Buckaroo UI: Integrate Buckaroo into 2-3 data exploration workflows to standardize dataframe visualization and improve developer experience.

Related Episodes

Key Quotes

"Deprecations via warnings don’t work for Python libraries. Seth Larson posted a uh a blog post about deprecation warnings don't work for python libraries and like they don't really I thought they did so the the news really or what happened was your lib 3 uh 2 6 was released and they removed some things that have been deprecated for a long time and by a long time i mean like forever in computer terms three years."

Brian Okken explains that Seth Larson's blog post highlights a common issue: deprecation warnings are often ineffective for Python libraries. Okken notes that even when features have been deprecated for years, their removal can still cause complaints, suggesting that the current warning system may not be sufficient to alert developers.

"The idea is that you can when you just type out a data frame like just put a data frame empty on a line normally you'll get just a little text table of what that looks like some of the tools like vs code i think and marimo have a richer view of this but those views are totally different and their functionality is totally different so like if you try to go to another tool chain like from jupiter or vs code to jupiter that might not be there or you're trying to teach a class and people are using different tools or just do presentation whatever could be useful to have just one thing so all you do is you not scroll around crazy is you import buckaroo and then once you show a data frame just seeing let it data frame be the return value on an empty line then you'll get this output here that is this interactive thing."

Michael Kennedy introduces Buckaroo as a solution for consistent data frame exploration across different environments. Kennedy explains that Buckaroo provides an interactive table view that works uniformly in tools like Jupyter, VS Code, and Marimo, unlike the varied and sometimes incompatible views offered by these tools natively.

"It’s possible I might be in a “give dangerous tools to possibly irresponsible people” mood. Thanos - A Python CLI tool that randomly eliminates half of the files in a directory with a snap. This is great it recommends you use dry run to just see what it's going to delete and also you can there's a safe mode or something to you can oh you can do trash where it like copies it to the trash or the recycle bin instead but one of the faqs is like can i get my files back nope if you if you did them did this did the snap it's their gone."

Brian Okken shares a humorous discovery: Thanos, a Python CLI tool designed to randomly delete half the files in a directory. Okken notes the tool's "dry run" and "trash" modes but emphasizes its FAQ clearly states that deleted files are irretrievable, highlighting the tool's intentionally dangerous nature.

"I bought “computer glasses” (from EyeBuyDirect) Because my new monitor was driving me crazy! I have to have like a reading portion of the glasses because my regular vision is so bad that when you correct it the reading part becomes really hard it's like it's it's bad so I have to have the reading part but on a huge monitor like this it's more like foviatated rendering like there's little parts of the screen you look at that's clear and then the rest of it is fuzzy you're like what is going on it's really disorienting."

Michael Kennedy describes his personal experience with a new large monitor and vision issues, leading him to purchase specialized computer glasses. Kennedy explains that the large screen made his prescription glasses disorienting, with only parts of the screen appearing clear, prompting him to seek glasses specifically designed for arm's length focus.

"After 1,727 incredible day ones at AWS my bias for action has led me to take on a new challenge. Needless to say I didn't open that up and deeply I'm guessing that he's had there's a like at least that many teams at AWS and they just keep bouncing him around because he actually does too much action on things that shouldn't be changed you know what your bias for action has got you relocated yeah."

Michael Kennedy critiques a LinkedIn post, calling it "LinkedIn cringe" and likely AI-generated, featuring the phrase "my bias for action has led me to take on a new challenge." Kennedy speculates that the poster's "bias for action" might have led to frequent team changes within AWS due to potentially overzealous actions.

Resources

External Resources

Articles & Papers

  • "Deprecations via warnings don’t work for Python libraries" (sethmlarson.dev) - Discussed as a reason why deprecation warnings may not be effective for Python libraries.
  • "How to encourage developers to fix Python warnings for deprecated features" (dev.to) - Referenced for strategies to prompt developers to address deprecated features.
  • "PromptVer" (nesbitt.io) - Mentioned as a new versioning scheme designed for the age of large language models.
  • "Fixed it" (x.com) - Shared as a joke related to software development.
  • "LinkedIn Cringe" (blobs.pythonbytes.fm) - Presented as an example of potentially AI-generated or inauthentic professional networking content.
  • "Deprecations via warnings don’t work for Python libraries" (sethmlarson.dev) - Referenced for the idea that deprecation warnings may not be effective for Python libraries.
  • "How to encourage developers to fix Python warnings for deprecated features" (dev.to) - Referenced for strategies to prompt developers to address deprecated features.

Tools & Software

  • docs (github.com) - Described as a collaborative note-taking, wiki, and documentation platform built with Django and React, designed for self-hosting.
  • PyAtlas (pyatlas.io) - Mentioned as an interactive map of the top 10,000 Python packages on PyPI, visualizing package relationships.
  • pytest-deepassert (pypi.org) - Referenced as a pytest plugin that provides enhanced assertions with detailed diffs for deep data structures.
  • pytest-plus - Discussed as a pytest plugin offering extended functionality, including preventing duplicate test function names and cleaning problematic test identifiers.
  • Buckaroo (github.com) - Described as a data table UI for notebooks that allows exploration, searching, sorting, and viewing summary statistics and histograms for dataframes.
  • Thanos (github.com) - Mentioned as a Python CLI tool that randomly eliminates half of the files in a directory.
  • uv - Discussed as a tool for managing Python installations and virtual environments, now integrated as a default in PyCharm.
  • PyCharm (jetbrains.com) - Referenced for its updated support for uv as a default tool for new projects.

Websites & Online Resources

  • Python Bytes (pythonbytes.fm) - The podcast itself, serving as the primary context for all mentioned resources.
  • YouTube (youtube.com) - Mentioned as a platform where episodes are available for viewing.
  • fosstodon.org - Referenced for social media accounts of hosts and the show.
  • bsky.app - Referenced for social media accounts of hosts and the show.
  • pythonbytes.fm/live - Mentioned as the URL for the live YouTube stream.
  • pythonbytes.fm/friends-of-the-show - Referenced for signing up for a newsletter digest of show notes.
  • github.com/suitenumerique/docs - The repository for the "docs" platform.
  • pyatlas.io - The homepage for the PyAtlas tool.
  • github.com/fpgmaas/pyatlas - The repository for the PyAtlas project.
  • pypi.org/project/pytest-deepassert/ - The PyPI page for the pytest-deepassert plugin.
  • pypi.org/project/pytest-plus/ - The PyPI page for the pytest-plus plugin.
  • github.com/paddymul/buckaroo - The repository for the Buckaroo tool.
  • github.com/soldatov-ss/thanos - The repository for the Thanos tool.
  • talkpython.fm/installing-python - Referenced for an updated guide on installing Python.
  • training.talkpython.fm - Mentioned for redesigned course offerings.
  • eyebuydirect.com - Referenced as a source for purchasing computer glasses.
  • samsung.com/us/monitors/curved/40-inch-odyssey-g7-g75f-wuhd-180hz-curved-gaming-monitor-sku-ls40fg75denxza/ - Referenced for a specific monitor model.
  • us.pycon.org/2026/ - The website for PyCon US 2026 registration.
  • github.com/astral-sh/python-build-standalone/issues/846 - An issue tracker related to Python build standalone performance.

Organizations & Institutions

  • DINUM (numerique.gouv.fr) - Mentioned as part of the French government's joint effort in developing the "docs" platform.
  • ZenDiS - Mentioned as part of the German government's joint effort in developing the "docs" platform.
  • AWS - Referenced in the context of a professional's tenure and a perceived "bias for action."
  • Python Build Standalone - Referenced for a bug fix related to the build of xz and compression tools.

People

  • Michael Kennedy - Host of the Python Bytes podcast.
  • Brian Okken - Host of the Python Bytes podcast.
  • Seth Larson - Author of an article on deprecation warnings.
  • Ines Panker - Author of an article on encouraging developers to fix Python warnings.
  • Florian Maas - Creator of PyAtlas.
  • Paddy Mulcahy - Creator of Buckaroo.
  • Robert Franke - Contributor to the Python Build Standalone project.
  • Owen Lamont - Pointed out potential issues with "preck" and other tools.

Other Resources

  • Deprecations via warnings - Discussed as a mechanism for signaling deprecated features in Python libraries.
  • SemVer (Semantic Versioning) - Mentioned as a standard versioning scheme that PromptVer is compatible with.
  • Computer glasses - Recommended for improving vision clarity when working with large monitors.
  • Preck - Mentioned in relation to potential issues when used with other tools.
  • xz library - Referenced in the context of compression performance in Python builds.

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