Podcast Economics Shift to Audience Support and Lean Production

Key Quotes

"Well so there's an intermediate show in between I did a mini series called crypto island and it was interesting you know very 21 22 very 21 22 and the feeling was like I was not sure what to do after reply all it was sort of like that show had been big and popular and it was also so much a product of the team that networked on it where it didn't feel like it was something that I wanted to try to like make a facsimile of and then also I really did not want to work in like big podcasting because you've done it I'd done it and like I really saw its upsides and I really saw its limitations and I just felt like I want to try the other thing"

PJ Vogt explains that after the success of "Reply All," he felt hesitant to replicate its format. He also expresses a desire to move away from the "big podcasting" environment, having experienced its advantages and disadvantages, and sought to explore a different approach.

"and like I really saw its upsides and I really saw its limitations and I just felt like I want to try the other thing and so my editor shruthi pennaminnini who's the editor on search engine as well you know like we co founded it together I was like I don't know what to do I was pitching her on all these ideas she was like you're going to do a mini series on cryptocurrency I was like I have no interest in cryptocurrencies she was like if you read about it you'll have an interest in it so I started reading we did it and it was really it ended up being the demo process for search engine without realizing it"

PJ Vogt describes how his editor, Shruthi Pennaminnini, guided him toward creating a cryptocurrency mini-series, which unexpectedly became a testing ground for the format and production style of his current show, "Search Engine." This process allowed them to experiment with making premium-feeling content on a limited budget.

"but it's what the market wants and the chat shows are cheap because it's usually just a person talking to another person sometimes with a staff sometimes not and narrative shows are you know they're not movies but they're projects that involve lots of people am I summing that up correctly"

PJ Vogt acknowledges that while many podcast creators may favor narrative shows, the market currently favors chat shows due to their lower production costs. He correctly summarizes that chat shows typically involve fewer people, making them more economically feasible than the more complex, multi-person narrative productions.

"and like that turned out to be obviously untrue when we started working on this I mean I should just say like I feel like not only did the market change I don't know like some great narrative got made a lot of stuff got made though and like I had so many conversations with people who were working in narrative who would say stuff like well so much of this is crap but like my thing is so good right which is the how everything is everybody feels about everything yes in media"

PJ Vogt reflects on the initial belief that the podcast market would support a large number of narrative shows, a notion that proved incorrect. He notes that while many narrative podcasts were produced, there was a prevalent sentiment among creators that much of the output was subpar, with individuals believing their own work was an exception.

"and so the only way you can really solve that like really truthfully from my point of view in 2022 2023 when we started piloting search engine she was like it has to basically be a weekly and it should be an explainer and so we worked backwards from our understanding of the market and what could work"

PJ Vogt explains that in response to market shifts in 2022-2023, he and his team determined that "Search Engine" needed to be a weekly explainer show to be viable. This decision was a strategic adaptation, working backward from their analysis of market demands and potential economic models.

"so you decided one week we can't do a full narrative show with all the bells and whistles people are used to well we could with the asterisk that we wouldn't be able to be independent like if you went to somebody and you said finance me and i am not sure but i think i can build one more pure narrative show but it's going to be a pretty big upfront cost and you're going to have to trust me for i mean sometimes podcasts aren't profitable those podcasts for three and five years maybe you can do it under the circumstances but we really wanted to be independent we really wanted to own it and so then you can't be unprofitable for that long"

PJ Vogt details the trade-off between producing a high-production narrative show and maintaining independence. He explains that while such shows might require significant upfront investment and a long period before profitability, their desire for ownership necessitated a more quickly profitable model, leading them to a hybrid approach.

"and then it's like 40 pages of like what's editorial culture because i think that stuff in the earlier part of my career i thought was so corny but now i think is really important"

PJ Vogt highlights the significance of an employee handbook that extends beyond administrative and legal matters to define the editorial culture. He now recognizes the importance of explicitly outlining values and conflict resolution processes, a concept he previously dismissed as "corny" but now considers crucial for a healthy workplace.

"and it complicates our stories a lot and i feel really good about that the asymmetry between the person telling the story and the person whose story it is it's really tricky you can never really i think solve it satisfactorily for anybody but i think more people should be conscious of it"

PJ Vogt emphasizes the value of reaching out to all individuals involved in a story, even those with power, to ensure a more complete and ethical reporting process. He acknowledges the inherent asymmetry and difficulty in balancing the storyteller's perspective with the subject's reality, but believes this conscious effort leads to better, more nuanced journalism.